Xueling Liu

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Below is a transcript, edited for length and clarity, of a conversation conducted in Mandarin Chinese between Xueling Liu and Ruth Chang (creative director at Midstory) with interpretation facilitated by Feiran Yang and Hope Harrington (teacher in MidTown Cleveland’s AsiaTown Adult Literacy Project) on February 7, 2023. For ease of understanding, the conversation has been translated into English with the original language below. The transcript is representative of a subjective and fluid conversation at a specific moment in time and should be read as such. This project also includes many individuals whose first language is not English; these transcripts prioritize the integrity of the interviewees’ expression over grammatical correctness. Midstory assumes no responsibility for any errors, omissions or inaccuracies.

Ruth Chang (RC): I would like you to start by saying your name, and also what you do.

Xueling Liu (XL): My name is Liu Xueling. I am from China, Hunan Province, Changde City. I am 73 years old, and I used to work as a preschool teacher before coming to the United States.

(我叫刘学玲。我来自中国，湖南，常德市，我今年73岁，我以前来美国之前的工作是一个幼儿教师。)

RC: I want to know which city you were in when you were in China. Can you describe some experiences and living in that city? 

XL: Changde City is geographically located in the south of the Yangtze River in China, in the Jiangnan area, and in the north of Changsha. This is how it is located.

(常德市，地理位置在中国的长江以南地区，江南地区，在长沙的北面，大的位置就是这样。)

I grew up in Changde City and lived there for more than 70 years. I am 73 years old. I never left that place, from studying there, going to school, until retirement. After retirement, I participated in some daily community activities, physical exercises, cultural performances and so on. Our daily life is similar to that of ordinary Chinese elderly.

(我从小在常德市长大，在那里生活了70多年吧。我今年73岁嘛。一直没有离开过那个地方。从在那儿念书，上学，一直到退休。退休以后呢，参加一些日常的社区活动，体育锻炼啊，文艺演出啊，等等这些。我们的生活日常就是跟中国普通人的老人差不多。)

RC: What do you do after retirement — any hobbies you do?

XL: In terms of hobbies, I like doing tai chi and tai chi with swords. I like to do some crocheting and handwork at home. Because I am a preschool teacher, I also do origami and crocheting with children at school; I like to read books and listen to music. Of course, I also like doing housework. I am willing to learn cooking. These things basically fill my life. When I first retired, I was lost for a while, and these hobbies helped me a lot.

(生活爱好上，我就喜欢太极拳、太极剑。在家里喜欢做一些钩织，手工，因为我是幼儿教师嘛，在学校也是要跟小朋友们做这些折纸啊，钩织啊这些东西的；我还有一个最大的爱好是比较喜欢看书，听听音乐；当然我也很喜欢做家务，哈哈，很愿意学习烹饪。这些东西基本上能填满我的生活。刚退休时，有一段时间很失落，这些爱好给了我很大帮助。) 

RC: Why did you end up coming to America? 

XL: Because my daughter was at the University of Pennsylvania, she came to the United States to study for a Ph.D. program and she had been studying there for five years. She graduated from China with a master’s degree, and then went to the United States to study for a Ph.D. degree. She graduated from Tsinghua University. We had only one daughter. After having a little granddaughter, we wanted to help her, so here we are. At the beginning, I stayed half a year each time. My son-in-law’s parents take turns with us every half a year to come to the U.S. to take care of our grandchildren. This time it is because of the pandemic, I cannot leave the U.S., so I have been staying here for almost four years. 

(因为我女儿在宾夕法尼亚大学，她来美国读博士，在这边读了五年吧。她是国内硕士毕业，再到美国读博士，她是清华的。她来了以后，我们只有一个女儿。在有了小外孙女以后，我们要帮帮她，所以我们就来了。来的时候，头几年是半年往返，跟我们庆家半年半年地交接班，以一种交接班的形式来美国。这次是因为19年来了以后，因为疫情，就一直没有回去，已经快四年了。)

RC: When you came to Cleveland, how do you think life here compares to when you were in mainland China? Any differences? 

XL: At the beginning, I felt very uncomfortable with the American way of residence. In China, the residence is usually apartment-style and neighbors live next door to each other. We live very close, door to door. But when I came here for the first time, I felt very scared. My daughter went to work, and I took care of my little granddaughter in the house alone. I felt very insecure, and felt that someone would knock on the door at any time, even if there was no one around. I did encounter unfriendly incidents. Can I tell the story?

(开始我对这种居住的方式很不适应。因为国内是公寓式的，隔壁邻里之间是门挨门的，对面就是邻居。但来到这里以后，第一次来的时候，感觉很害怕。孩子上班去了，我带着小孙女一个人在这里，觉得很没有安全感，觉得随时都会有人来敲门那种感觉，因为周围都没人嘛，并且确实遇到过不太友好的事件。我能说这个故事吗？)

RC: Yes, you can tell us.

XL: One day, I suddenly heard a loud banging sound in my house, around 3 pm, several times in a row. I don’t know what happened, but I didn’t dare to go out to figure it out. After my daughter came home at night, I told her about it. I happened to see two children across the street, fifteen or sixteen years old, mowing the lawn. There is a tree in their yard, and fruit grows on the tree. Maybe it is a kind of discrimination — they may know that we are Chinese — they took the fruit and threw it, hitting our house. My daughter had no clue how to deal with it, since she came to this place not long ago. So, she went to consult a neighbor for advice. The neighbor told us we should call the police. Such an issue is a violation to our house. What I am most amazed about is that within five minutes, the police came and took photos of all the fruits that fell on the ground, immediately went to the children’s house, and asked their parents to bring their children over to apologize. I have a deep impression on this matter. 

When I first came to the U.S., I didn’t feel secure, but I still like the natural environment here, because it gives people a very relaxing feeling, very quiet — not as noisy as cities in mainland China. Roads are very clean; no matter where you walk, there will be no dust on the bottom of your shoes, and shoes can keep clean for a long time. Before I came to the U.S., I heard that you don’t need to do shoe shine for 20 days. I couldn’t believe it at that time. I really felt this way. 

After coming to the U.S. for about half a year, I slowly got used to the environment. I am a relatively adaptable person, so I got used to the living environment faster. I started to realize that this is how Americans live, which is very different from that of China. And I can also sense the friendliness of other people around me.

(就是有一天，我突然听见我的房子有很大的撞击声，下午3点左右，连续好几次，我不知道什么原因，但是我也不敢出去看。后来晚上我女儿回家以后，我就把这个事情告诉她了。刚好就发现小路对面，有两个孩子，十五六岁的孩子在那儿割草。他们家有树，树上长着果子。也许是一种歧视吧，他们可能知道我们是中国人，他们拿着那个果子扔出来，打我们的房子。我女儿那时候来这边也不久，就去咨询了邻居的意见。他们说，你应该报警，这种事是对你的房屋的侵犯。我最感叹的是，不到五分钟，警察就来了，并且把落在地上的果子都拍了照片，立刻就去对面的孩子家了，并且让他们父母带着孩子过来道歉。我对这件事感受比较深。当时刚来，我没有安全感，但是对这里的自然环境，还是很喜欢的，因为它给人一种很放松的感觉，很安静，没有国内城市那么嘈杂，很干净的感觉，不管你走在哪里，你的脚底不会有灰尘，来了好久都是干干净净的。以前在报道中，也听说过，来了20多天，都不擦皮鞋，当时不太敢相信，觉得这是不可能的事情，因为我们在国内的居住环境，简直是半天都不行，来了以后确实有这种感觉。来了大概半年以后吧，慢慢就适应了。我这个人适应性也比较强，就比较适应这种居住环境了，并且也知道美国就是这种，跟我们国内有很大的区别，也能感受到周围其他人的友好。)

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RC: You live here — what is your favorite thing to do?

XL: My favorite thing to do is to walk around the city of Cleveland and experience all aspects of the city. I mostly like to go to Lake Erie in the summer. Every day around 7AM, I will go downstairs and walk 20 minutes to Lake Erie by myself. After going around Lake Erie, I will exercise by myself, do some patting exercises and do some tai chi, take a look at the vast lake. There are many people who get up early in the morning to drive a yacht on the water surface. One time, I saw a kayak on the water, so, I took a video and sent it to my social media. 

The feeling was very good, because it was empty. I like watching the sunset over there a lot. I  went to watch the sunset and the sunset was very beautiful. Then I like to take a walk in the city. I like the feeling when I walk and look at those old buildings. Although the buildings in this city are very old, they have attractive styles — no two buildings are the same. The streets are not wide, but you don’t have the feeling of being compressed and you don’t feel hard to breathe. When I was in Shanghai, I went to the section of People’s Square in Pudong. When I stood there, I felt tall buildings pressing down. Although Cleveland also has many tall buildings, I don’t feel compressed and still feel wonderful. I also like to go to the art museum on the east side, and go there to see the Chinese art collections.

我最喜欢做的事情就是，在克利夫兰这个城市到处转，去感受这个城市的方方面面。我夏天最喜欢去伊利湖，每天7点钟左右，我就会下楼去，自己走20分钟去伊利湖。到伊利湖边转一圈以后，就在伊利湖边自己动一动，做一些拍打的锻炼，自己打一套拳。看一看浩瀚的湖面，有很多清早起来的人去开飞艇。我还有一次看见，我在一个视频号上记录了这样一个场景，就是有一个皮划艇训练，那种感觉特别好，因为空旷，并且我喜欢在那边看日落，我最喜欢到那边去看日落，那日落特别美。再就是喜欢去城市走一走，因为我感觉，这个城市的建筑，虽然很老，但是它很有味道，没有一幢房子是同样的。它的街道不宽，但是没有那种窒息感。因为我在上海，去过浦东的人民广场那一段，你站在哪儿，会感觉很窒息，有高楼压顶的感觉。但是克利夫兰有很高的楼，但是你没有感觉窒息，感觉还是很美妙。我也喜欢去东边的艺术博物馆，去那儿去看看我们中国馆的那些馆藏。)

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RC: You just mentioned that there are some friends in this apartment, right? Then tell me, how did you meet these people? What do you do together? 

XL: When I came, there was a “House of Dance and Martial arts” here. It was organized by two friends in the apartment. They led the Chinese people to do square dance, some tai chi, and some fitness activities in the lounge. My daughter has a female friend whose parents told me about this apartment. So I applied and joined this apartment. So we worked out together in this apartment, and then some new people came in. There is an old Chinese saying, “Things of one kind come together” [the equivalent of “birds of a feather flock together”]. It means that people with the same preferences will come together naturally. In this way, according to my preferences, I have some close friends. Everyone in the apartment gets along with each other in harmony. It is not possible to have a lot of close friends; I only have probably two or three very close friends. Because some elderly people in the apartment do not want to go out for a walk and prefer to sit at home by themselves. There are a few who are willing to go out for a walk. I often go out for a walk with three close friends and we look for different places to go.

我来的时候，这里有一个“舞武之家”。是由公寓里的两个朋友，他们组织的，就是带领中国华人，在大厅里，跳一跳广场舞啊，打打拳啊，做一些健身活动。这两个老师的女儿，跟我女儿，他们是朋友，我们是因为他们，才知道这个公寓，来申请了这个公寓。所以我们在这个公寓中一起锻炼，后来陆陆续续来了一些新的人。中国有句古话，“物以类聚，人以群分”。就是以自己喜好相同的人，能够自然地走到一起。就这样按照自己的喜好，有一些比较接近的朋友。跟公寓的所有人，还都是能够和睦相处吧。比较接近的朋友，不可能这么广泛，大概有这么两三个。因为公寓里有些老人是不愿意出去走，愿意自己坐在家里。有几个愿意出去走走的，我们一起三个人，就经常出去找这些地方去走。

RC: Did you study English together? 

XL: We are learning English with Hope and the others. But do you know what our pains are? Let me tell you about myself. Besides learning English with Hope, I also attend an online Chicago Chinese school, which has a remote English class, and I also participated in that English class.

我们是跟着Hope他们学英文。但是我们的苦难在哪里呢？讲我自己吧，我现在除了在Hope这个地方学英文，还有一个网上的芝加哥中文学校，它有一个远程的英文教学，我们也参加了那个英文班。

RC: Why learn English?

XL: Because I would like to resolve the language issue. To people like me, the biggest problem here is transportation and language. These are the two big barriers. We don’t have a car, so we cannot go anywhere. I actually got my driver’s license in China, but I didn’t take the test here. My daughter felt that I am too old to drive and there are safety and many other factors, so I didn’t take the driver’s license test in the U.S. I rely on public transportation. When I want to go to a place, I need to tell the address to the driver, I need to ask for directions. These require me to speak some English. When I go shopping, you have to know the names of those things and know what those things are. If I don’t know what those things are, even if I want to buy them, I cannot buy them. For the above reasons, in order for myself to survive here better, I have to learn English. 

But there are two big obstacles for us to learn. One is that we are too old to remember things; the second is that there is no language environment to practice English. Although I have learned a lot in class in all aspects, and I have learned a lot with my own software, yet I have no way to apply it in my life. So my language capacity is limited to this level. When I want to do certain things, I will prepare my speaking ahead of time, then I speak what I prepared. For example, I like to go to a donut store to buy donuts for my grandson. I have to think about what kind of donuts I want, and how many of each kind. In this way, I can express it. When I ask for directions, I have to get clear information. But I still have obstacles in listening to English and getting correct meanings, so I have difficulties in this aspect.

(因为自己像解决语言的问题。我们来到这里最大的问题，是一个交通，一个语言，这两个障碍。交通让我们寸步难行，我们没有车。我其实也在国内拿了驾照，但是我在这边没有考，并且我女儿，他们感觉你这么大年纪，不安全，还有其他许多因素吧，也就没有考这个驾照，那么我就依赖公共汽车。那么你去哪里，是不是需要跟司机说清楚，需要问路，这个也是需要英文的；再有你去买东西，你得认识一些东西，许多东西你想买，你不认识它，你也买不了。基于这个原因，为了让自己更好地在这里生存，你得要学习。但我们学习最大的障碍，一个是年纪大了，记不住；第二是没有语言环境。我们尽管在课堂上学了很多，方方面面都学到了，自己也有软件学到很多，但是没有办法运用到生活中去。所以我们现在仅限于，我想去干个什么事情，我先把目的，就是我要干的这个事情的这些语言自己组织好，组织好以后，在那儿，我把这个表达出来。比如我喜欢去甜甜圈的店，去给我外孙买甜甜圈，我会要自己想好，我要什么样的，什么样的品种，这个品种要多少个，我这个能表达出来。我问路，我得要把这个路问清楚。但是我现在还是有障碍，没有办法完整地听清楚英文，所以在这个方面还是有困难。

RC: When did you start learning English?

XL: It started when Hope taught us to learn English in October of 2021.

(应该是 Hope 他们带我们是21年的10月份。) 

RC: How did you start learning?

XL: In the apartment, we have a homeowners association. The director of the homeowner association sent an invitation through the community, and we signed up voluntarily. Later, during the pandemic, the Chicago English school recruited students online, so we eagerly signed up.

(就是在公寓里，我们有一个居委会，居委会主任通过社区的联系，发出了邀请，我们自愿报名的。后来在疫情期间，芝加哥的学校也是在网上有招生，我们也就积极报名了。)

RC: How many people are there in this group except you? 

XL: There are about 15 people in our apartment, probably more than 15 people.

(我们公寓里有15个人左右，应该15个人以上。) 

RC: So what do you like most about this class? What did you get?

XL: When I was in the class, I should say, I feel a kind of intimacy among Chinese people, and a sense of freedom. I felt that I could speak freely. I don’t have to guess what other people are speaking all the time. I am free to say what I want to say and do what I want to do.

(我在这里面得到的东西吧，应该是感受到一种国人的亲切感，和那种自由感，我感觉我能自由地说话。我不用老是听着别人去猜测，我很可以自由地去说我自己想说的东西，去做自己想做的事情。) 

RC: Do you now feel that you are more Americanized?

XL: No, no. After all, I was 57 years old when I first came to the U.S., although it was intermittent for many years. Up to now, the longest time I have stayed in the U.S. is four years, so I still want to go back to China, and I have not completely settled down yet. It’s impossible for me to be Americanized, I think.

(没有，没有。因为我们毕竟来的时候，我第一次来的时候我是57岁了，这个时间是断断续续的，到现在，最长的时间是4年在这里，所以一直还是想回去，没有完全把心定在这儿，所以不可能美国化吧，我想。)

RC: Then, do you have any American friends?

XL: Yes, someone can be counted as a friend. I have a preschool teacher for my grandson — her name is Rolly. Later, she stopped being a teacher and went to work as a cashier in a shopping mall. She loves Chinese tai chi very much. She has been learning tai chi from me for two years. She visits our house twice a week, around 11:00 in the morning. For more than two years on and off, she has learned two sets of tai chi and one set of tai chi with swords. She learned very well. She and her husband are both Americans. This should be considered friends, right?

(应该有。我有一个我外孙的幼儿园老师，她叫Rolly。 她后来不做老师了，去了商场当了收银员。她很热爱中国的太极，她一直跟我学了两年的太极，每周去我们家两次，上午十一点左右去我们家两次，断断续续有两年多的时间，我给她教了两套太极拳，一套太极剑，她学得也很好。她和她丈夫都是美国人，这应该算朋友吧？)

RC: So do you speak English?

XL: No, we communicate through the translation software on WeChat. Moreover, when I teach tai chi, I use some simple words, such as “left, right, up, down.” Just using simple words, the two of us have a way of communicating that we understand each other. Because we have been together for a long time, she can basically understand when I say, “Go this way” or “Go that way.” Or through the translation on WeChat, we can click and know the meaning.

(没有，我们通过微信上的翻译软件，来进行交流。而且，我在教太极的时候，用一些简单的单词，比如，向左，向右，上，下。就是用简单的单词，我们两个人就是有一种我们的那种交流方式。因为我们相处时间长了，我说这么去，那么去，她基本上能理解。通过微信上的翻译，我们点一下，就知道意思了。)

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RC: Then you and your grandson, are you close to him? Do you have something you want to convey to him? Does he understand Chinese things?

XL: Our family has such a rule that the children do not speak English at home, since childhood. My granddaughter was born on the second or third day after we first came to the U.S., so she was basically brought up by our hands. Her parents both go to work, and we communicate in Chinese at home, and the family stipulates that English is not spoken at home. Because I am a preschool teacher, I brought a lot of preschool education materials from China. So since she was little, I started teaching her in pinyin, one word at a time. When she was more than two years old, she knew a lot of Chinese characters and could read aloud, such as those nursery rhymes, poems and some ancient poems in our preschool lesson plans, like Mulan Ci and so on. Therefore, they speak Chinese quite well, and these are the biggest reasons why our English cannot be fluent. Because I see a friend in our apartment, her grandson does not speak Chinese, so her English is better than ours. I don’t speak English well because my grandchildren speak Chinese very well. 

I also thought of many ways when I taught them Chinese traditional culture. For example, I used a large board. I wrote Chinese characters, idioms, etc., and pasted these on the large board. I made a lot of boards. When I had spare time, I tested them on words just like in class. The Chinese level of our two grandchildren is quite good. They can speak Mandarin very well, and they also have a good understanding of Chinese culture. 

(我们家是这样一个规矩，孩子在家不说英文，从小。并且我那个大孙女呢，因为她出生的时候，我们就来了，我们来的第二第三天出生的，所以基本是在我们手上带大的。她的爸爸妈妈都上班，我们在家就中文交流，并且家里规定了，在家不说英文。因为我是幼儿教师，我从国内带来很多幼教的资料。所以从小，我就是用拼音开始教起，一个字一个字地教。她在两岁多的时候，就认识很多很多的汉字，并且能朗读，我们幼儿园教案上的那些儿歌、诗歌、一些古诗词，像木兰辞等等。所以他们的中文说得相当好，这些是我们的英文不能自如的最大原因。因为我看见我们公寓有一个朋友，她的孙子不说中文，所以她的英文比我们都好。我们的最大的问题是，因为孩子不说英文嘛，我们在教给他们我们的传统文化的时候，我也想了很多办法。比如用大的板子，写上中国的单字、成语等等，把这些贴在大板子上。我弄了好多板子，抽出时间，就跟上课一样，点词。我们两个孙子的中文是相当好，并且普通话也是说得很好，对中国的文化还是有比较多的了解。)

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RC: As a Chinese living here, what are you most proud of?

XL: What we are most proud of is that our children contribute to society, and this society does not only refer to American society. Everything they do should be helpful to the progress of the world. What they learned in China, what they learned in the United States, the universities they studied in China, and their doctor degrees in the United States, all these experiences make who they are today. The United States is a very inclusive country. There are Asians, people from other countries and people from all over the world. If you work here, the contribution is at a scale of the whole world. I am proud that my children can contribute to the progress of the world, right? To put it mildly, my children are promising — that’s what I feel like. Their contribution to the world, even if small, is relevant. There are still many children in China who cannot survive by themselves. Have you heard of this term — “Gnawing on the old”? It means that you can do nothing by yourself, you can’t even guarantee your own survival and you still have to rely on your parents. But our children can, in addition to not relying on their parents, also contribute to society. This society is a big category.

(最自豪的是，我们的孩子们对社会有贡献，这个社会不仅指美国社会。他们所做的一切应该对世界的进步是有帮助的。他们在国内所学的、在美国所学的，在国内念的大学，在美国念博士。你所作的所有一切工作，除了对美国，因为美国是一个包容性很强的国家，有亚裔，有其他国家的，各个国家的人，这是世界性的。我自豪的是，我的孩子能够为世界的进步能做贡献吧，小一点说就是，我的孩子有出息，就是这种感觉；大一点说，对这种世界性的贡献，虽然是很小的一份，但是总是有贡献的。因为国内还有很多孩子，你们不知听说过这个词没有？就是啃老。就是自己无所作为，连自己的生存都不能保证，还要靠父母。但是我们的孩子能够，除了不靠父母，还能给社会做贡献，这个社会是一个很大的范畴。)

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Samuel Chang (SC): I am switching gears a little bit. I am curious if you pay attention to global politics, specifically what is happening between China and America relations. I wonder if you have any perspectives on that specific point?

XL: Political issues, right? There are many concerns about this. Let me give you an example. At the beginning of the pandemic, there were rumors spread around that the United States had severe material shortages. Then I found a video. A Chinese made a video introducing that the United States is still relatively rich in materials. So I put this video on “Moments” of my Wechat. I intended to tell my friends, “Don’t worry, we have no problems in the United States, in terms of life and other material things. Everything is fine.” But it was opposed by one of my friends, you know? I was very uncomfortable. He said, “Don’t spread these videos indiscriminately, okay?” I immediately wrote him a message and said sorry to him, but I blocked this friend. Because I don’t think that’s what I meant. I mean to tell you that I’m safe and I’m not materially deprived. If you say that, it feels like I am promoting the goodness of the United States. Therefore, I will never talk about what is good about the United States, what is good about China, what is bad about the United States, and what is bad about China. I won’t compare them. I don’t want to make such a comparison, because America is where my children want to live, and China is where I lived all my life, so I have emotions attached with both places. I think that it is impossible for a country to be perfect. It has its good and bad, so we don’t judge it. Therefore, I never comment on the politics of China and the United States. I only share my daily life.

(政治问题是吧，这个有很多的顾虑，我举个例子吧。在疫情开始的时候， 不是国内传了很多美国物质抢空啊，怎么怎么的，后来我就发现一个视频，有一个中国人拍了一个视频介绍美国在物质上还是比较充裕的。所以我就把这个视频放在朋友圈了，我的意思是去告诉我的朋友，你们放心，我们在美国没有什么问题，在生活上，在其他物质上，都很好。但是这就遭到了朋友的反对，你知道吧？我很不舒服，他们说，“你不要乱传这些视频好不好？” 我当时就马上写了三个字，对不起，但是我就把这个朋友拉黑了。因为我觉得我的本意不是这样，我是说，想告诉你们我很安全，也没有物质上的匮乏。你要是这么说呢，感觉我是在宣传美国好。所以，我以后从来再不谈关于美国的好、关于中国的好、美国的不好、中国的不好，不对比。不做这样的对比，因为美国是我的孩子们要生活的地方，中国是我一辈子生存的地方，所以这两个地方对我来说，都是有感情的。所以我觉得，每一个国家都不可能完美，都有它的好和不好，所有我们不要去评价它。所以我从来不评价中美的政治，我只分享我的日常生活。)